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Oct. 29, 2023

From Convict to Advocate for Liberty

From Convict to Advocate for Liberty
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Today we talk with Michael Liebowitz, author of View from a Cage, about his life in prison and his intellectual growth to become an advocate of liberty. This is a very interesting and stimulating conversation.

Call-to-Action: After you have listened to this episode, add your $0.02 (two cents) to the conversation, by joining (for free) The Secular Foxhole Town Hall. Feel free to introduce yourself to the other members, discuss the different episodes, give us constructive feedback, or check out the virtual room, Speakers' Corner, and step up on the digital soapbox. Welcome to our new place in cyberspace!

Show notes with links to articles, blog posts, products and services:


Episode 75 (36 minutes) was recorded at 2200 Central European Time, on October 19, 2023, with Ringr app. Martin did the editing and post-production with the podcast maker, Alitu. The transcript is generated by Alitu.

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This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

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Transcript
Blair:

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

Blair:

Welcome to another episode of the Secular

Blair:

Foxhole podcast.

Blair:

Today we have a very interesting guest, let's

Blair:

put it that way.

Blair:

I'm going to open the show with a quote and

Blair:

then I'll introduce our guest.

Blair:

So quote, I frankly feel that you have shown

Blair:

yourself to be capable of almost any offense and very little to think that there is

Blair:

anything redeeming about your background or redeeming about you and the future.

Blair:

You have shown yourself to be totally incapable and unwilling of conducting yourself

Blair:

according to the rules of a civilized people in the community.

Blair:

And I think you have to be incarcerated as recommended by the pre sentence investigation

Blair:

for a substantial period of time for public protection.

Blair:

You are a dangerous person.

Blair:

Today's guest is Michael Lieboitz, the subject

Blair:

of that rather ominous quote.

Blair:

Michael, how are you?

Michael:

Well, I'm doing much better than I was when I heard that quote.

Michael:

That's for sure.

Blair:

I'm glad to hear that, glad to hear that.

Blair:

Now, you were obviously sentenced to prison, but the story is quite compelling, quite

Blair:

frankly.

Blair:

Can you describe your childhood and early

Blair:

adulthood, if you would?

Michael:

Sure. I was raised predominantly by my mother in a low income housing project.

Michael:

It wasn't the type of project that you'd see on television.

Michael:

There weren't shootings every day or anything like that, but it was nonetheless a low income

Michael:

housing project.

Michael:

My mother was a heroin addict, as was my

Michael:

father.

Michael:

My father was also an alcoholic and he was

Michael:

kind of in and out of my life.

Michael:

But from a young age, I was attracted to the

Michael:

troublemakers in the neighborhood.

Michael:

And I looked at my parents, the example that

Michael:

they set, that certainly wasn't good.

Michael:

And they both also instructed me to be

Michael:

violent, that if somebody messes with you, you hurt them.

Michael:

When I was six years old, for instance, a neighborhood kid had choked me, another six

Michael:

year old.

Michael:

And I went home and I had strangulation marks

Michael:

on my neck.

Michael:

And my mother told me, well, you go hit them

Michael:

with a beer bottle.

Michael:

Being six, that's what I did.

Michael:

So these type of things just got worse and worse as I got older.

Michael:

And as a young adult, even teenager, I got into drinking and smoking marijuana, doing

Michael:

taking pills and whatnot.

Michael:

I sold drugs and I always wanted to be tough.

Michael:

My father had a reputation for being tough and I wanted to be like him.

Michael:

The problem was I wasn't tough.

Michael:

I was small, skinny, and I couldn't fight.

Michael:

So what I did was I compensated by becoming extremely ruthless and resorting to weapons.

Michael:

Ultimately, I was amassing charge after charge for assaults and selling drugs.

Michael:

And I had a girlfriend and we broke up and she started dating somebody else.

Michael:

And quite frankly, I couldn't handle it.

Michael:

So I had her boyfriend stabbed while he slept.

Michael:

And I received a 27 year sentence for that to run what's called consecutive with my other

Michael:

time when I had six more years.

Michael:

So I had a total effective sentence of 33

Michael:

years when I was 21 years old.

Blair:

And that was what year? When did that happen?

Blair:

When did that occur?

Michael:

The assault took place in 1997.

Michael:

The sentencing took place in 1998.

Blair:

I see.

Blair:

So then 33 years.

Blair:

You'd just been recently released, I guess.

Michael:

Yes. I didn't actually do the whole 33 years.

Michael:

I got two what's called sentence modifications, where my sentence was reduced

Michael:

for exemplary behavior.

Michael:

And so I got five years taken total off my

Michael:

sentence, which gave me a 28 year sentence.

Michael:

And with good time, I ended up doing about 25

Michael:

years and I don't know, two or three months.

Blair:

I see.

Blair:

In your book View from a Cage, you mentioned

Blair:

your intellectual development with something called the, quote, worldwide Dream Builders

Blair:

reading list.

Blair:

Can you go into that?

Michael:

Okay. Well, when I was 18 years old, I had a car and driving down the highway 91

Michael:

north in Connecticut, the engine blew in the fast lane, and the car gave off a distinct

Michael:

smell, and it really scared the hell out of me.

Michael:

Cars are racing by and oh, my God, it was awful.

Michael:

So fast forward a couple of months, and I was driving my mother's car, and I thought I

Michael:

smelled that same odor.

Michael:

And so I panicked, and I pulled over, and this

Michael:

guy pulls over, and he's going to help me.

Michael:

He's going to take me to the gas station.

Michael:

I thought I needed some water, maybe to cool the car down.

Blair:

Okay.

Michael:

And he starts talking to me about this business he has, and he must have been 29

Michael:

or 30 at the time, and he said he's going to be retired in five years.

Michael:

And I was really intrigued by that.

Michael:

So I started talking to him, and he said,

Michael:

well, now I don't really have enough time to explain it to you, but I could pick you up

Michael:

sometime and I'll tell you about it.

Michael:

And so he did.

Michael:

So it turned out what it was, was the Amway business.

Michael:

I didn't know anything about it at the time, but most people do, sure.

Michael:

So I got involved with the Amway business, and as part of the Amway business, they have a

Michael:

teaching system that's going to show you how to improve your communication, how you deal

Michael:

with people, change your mindset to a success oriented mindset.

Michael:

And it's called the Worldwide Dream Builders Teaching System, and it consisted of books,

Michael:

tapes, lectures, that sort of thing.

Blair:

Right.

Michael:

And so I got involved in that for a little while, and then I just dropped out.

Michael:

I got sick of it and didn't want to do it any longer.

Michael:

But years later, when I ended up in prison, I thought to myself, I want something different.

Michael:

I've got to change my life.

Michael:

And I knew that part of that would be reading.

Michael:

So I was reminded of the Worldwide dream Builders reading list.

Michael:

So I contacted the guy and I said hey, would you mind sending me the books?

Michael:

I'll pay you for them.

Michael:

And he said sure.

Michael:

So I think I must have read about 70 books on that list that they had for their teaching

Michael:

system.

Michael:

And that was sort of the, I would say,

Michael:

introduction to how I started to change my thinking and change my character.

Blair:

Very cool.

Blair:

Very cool.

Blair:

Yeah.

Martin:

That's fascinating because both Darren I we are interested in this industry.

Martin:

So interesting to hear that pathway.

Michael:

It's also worth noting that as part of that reading list were two books that would

Michael:

ultimately revolutionize my thinking when it came to politics and economics.

Michael:

One of them was Milton Friedman's book Free to choose.

Michael:

And the other was Frederick Bastiat's the Law.

Blair:

Now that's interesting coming from an Amway reading list.

Michael:

Yeah, it is.

Martin:

Free market, free and enterprising.

Blair:

That's true though.

Blair:

That's true.

Blair:

They are bastions of capitalism.

Michael:

Yeah. And I just became very interested in those topics of economics,

Michael:

politics, individual rights.

Martin:

So how easy is it to read and educate yourself in prison?

Michael:

Well, back then it was easier to get books into the facility.

Michael:

You'd order them and they'd get there pretty quickly.

Michael:

But years later there was a brutal attack here in Connecticut where I live, where the guys

Michael:

who they committed a home invasion and I guess they claimed or somebody thought that the

Michael:

inspiration for that was Truman Capote's book In Cold Blood.

Blair:

Wow.

Michael:

So after that they started being far stricter on what we could get and they went

Michael:

through this they expanded the review process.

Michael:

So it started taking longer for us to get

Michael:

books and we were also more limited in what we could get.

Michael:

But it's interesting because when they put out the first approved reading list for the books

Michael:

that were going to be allowed, one of the books that was going to be allowed was In Cold

Michael:

Blood by Trudeau, the very book that started the problem to begin with.

Michael:

But perhaps even more what makes reading in prison even more difficult is just the noise

Michael:

level.

Michael:

The noise level in prison is just out of

Michael:

control and it makes it very difficult to focus and to think about what you're reading.

Michael:

Not impossible, obviously, but difficult for sure, I bet.

Blair:

So those were some of the obstacles.

Blair:

But you persevered, obviously and you expanded

Blair:

your reading.

Blair:

I noticed you heard about laissez Faire books

Blair:

and freedom from economic freedom.

Michael:

Or the Fee Foundation for Economic yes.

Blair:

Thank you.

Michael:

I actually got that information about Lazar Fair Books and Fee from the back of the

Michael:

book, The Law.

Michael:

I think it was on the back page or maybe on

Michael:

the back cover.

Blair:

I see.

Michael:

And it had the address for the foundation for Economic Education.

Michael:

So I wrote to them and I said hey, look, any information you could send me, I'd be very

Michael:

eager to see it.

Michael:

And they sent me a one year free subscription

Michael:

to their magazine, Ideas on Liberty, and inside there was the address for books.

Blair:

Okay, well, now this is an aside question.

Blair:

What is the difference or what characteristic of Milton Friedman and Bastiat?

Blair:

Are there differences, or are they the same type of advocates for capitalism?

Michael:

No, actually, Milton Friedman is what would be called a utilitarian.

Michael:

He makes the argument that in a free society, you're going to have a more prosperous

Michael:

society, more people are going to benefit, and more people are going to have a higher quality

Michael:

of life.

Michael:

And he demonstrates it very clearly in simple

Michael:

language.

Michael:

Frederick Bastillott makes an argument from an

Michael:

individual rights perspective.

Michael:

He says, it's immoral for the government to

Michael:

take property from people to tell people what they can and can't do unless those people are

Michael:

violating other people's rights.

Michael:

So in reality, of course, the two can't be

Michael:

separated.

Michael:

The two go together.

Michael:

When you have a society that protects individual rights, you end up with a society

Michael:

that flourishes the benefit of the most amount of people society.

Blair:

Yeah. Cool. Cool. So then obviously, you expand your reading list into philosophy

Blair:

and psychology.

Blair:

How did you stumble across Rand, Iron Rand?

Michael:

My first encounter with Iron Rand was I was reading a book called The Triumph of

Michael:

Liberty by Jim Powell.

Michael:

That interesting.

Michael:

I didn't get it from laser fair books.

Michael:

I actually got it from the National Review

Michael:

bookstore.

Michael:

And the book Triumph of Liberty, I think I

Michael:

want to say 64.

Michael:

It might have been 66, but it was many

Michael:

biographies of people that have advanced the cause of liberty.

Michael:

And I came across Iron Rand, and they talked about her book Atlas Shrugged.

Michael:

And I thought, wow, that's a fascinating story.

Michael:

I really like to read that.

Michael:

And lo and behold, when I got my first laissez

Michael:

fair books catalog, there was a box set where the books included were Human Action by Lubric

Michael:

van Mises.

Michael:

I think Economics and One Lesson by Henry

Michael:

Haslett.

Michael:

Discovery of Freedom by Rose Wilder lane and

Michael:

Atlas Shrug by Ayn.

Michael:

Rand.

Michael:

So I ordered that box set, and that was my first book from Ayn Rand was her masterpiece.

Blair:

You went whole hog then, right into the best.

Martin:

Yes.

Blair:

Wow, that's incredible.

Blair:

Now, was there such a thing as a prison

Blair:

library?

Michael:

Yeah, there is.

Michael:

There's a prison library.

Michael:

It's not great.

Michael:

I mean, there are some good books in there,

Michael:

and I did get some books from there.

Michael:

But at the point in my life when I was reading

Michael:

Atlas Shrug, I was just devouring books from Lazar Fair Books.

Michael:

Everything that I could think of, everything that I had money to buy, that was in that

Michael:

catalog I ordered.

Blair:

Now, obviously, you had to keep them in your room, I guess.

Blair:

How difficult was that?

Michael:

You got to give away a lot of books.

Martin:

Did you trade for other things then?

Michael:

Sure. So somebody else might have a book that I'd want.

Michael:

So I would trade I have this, you have that, and you trade books with other inmates and I

Michael:

continue to order books or just give them away once I have no more use for them.

Michael:

Because you have a limited amount of space.

Blair:

No doubt, no doubt.

Blair:

And tell us about some of your cellmates.

Blair:

I know you have one that you became fast friends with.

Michael:

Okay, I didn't actually become friends with him as cellmates.

Michael:

Cellmates in prison are a very strange dynamic because you're talking about being locked in a

Michael:

cage with a sociopath, and it's usually two sociopaths.

Michael:

I mean, maybe not by the clinical definition, but two men with very twisted thinking.

Michael:

And so arguments happen about everything.

Michael:

You've got two inconsiderate people and each

Michael:

one wants to uphold his own rights to the max while denying the other guy of his rights, and

Michael:

it's just very difficult to get along under such circumstances.

Michael:

But the cellmate that you referenced, and I want to say, yeah, 2001, he and I actually

Michael:

met, and this guy looked like he was probably in prison for computer fraud.

Michael:

So when I went to the chow hall in the morning, it was my first day at a new prison,

Michael:

and I was looking around for somebody that wouldn't be intimidating, that I could sit

Michael:

with, and this guy fit the bill.

Michael:

So I went and talked to him and he was very

Michael:

bright guy and we got to talking and he was interested in the same ideas I was in

Michael:

politics, philosophy, only he was a socialist at the time.

Michael:

So we would get into many debates but we started to read the same books and we would be

Michael:

debating socialism versus capitalism.

Michael:

And he quickly, once he saw the arguments for

Michael:

capitalism, he quickly came around and changed his mind.

Michael:

And then we were able to really have good discussions and really hone in on some

Michael:

technical points that where we might differ on, and we just debated constantly.

Michael:

We became very good friends and we were in the block together, I want to say for four years.

Michael:

And then finally he had a policy where he didn't want to live in the cell with friends

Michael:

because of the potential to ruin a friendship.

Michael:

But after a while, I just had so many bad

Michael:

cellies and I was so stressed out, I'm like, dude, you are moving in with me and that's all

Michael:

there is to it.

Michael:

And so we ended up becoming Sellies, and we

Michael:

were cellmates for eleven years, still friends.

Michael:

To this day.

Michael:

He's still in, but we're still friends.

Blair:

All right, now I have long admired this gentleman.

Blair:

Tell us how Dr. Stanton samedau influenced you.

Michael:

Well, Brent, the aforementioned cellmate, he bought a book called Inside the

Michael:

Criminal Mind, and it was by Stanton Samana, and both of us were extremely skeptical.

Michael:

I mean, we were interested in psychology and being criminals, we were interested in reading

Michael:

it, but we thought this guy couldn't possibly know what the hell he was talking about.

Michael:

But when we read the book, we were blown away.

Michael:

I mean, we agreed it was as if somebody had a

Michael:

blueprint to the way that we thought he nailed us, right from claiming to be victims of

Michael:

society and bad parenting to blaming drugs and how we treated other people as pawns and

Michael:

didn't respect the rights of other people.

Michael:

He just nailed us.

Michael:

And he said, criminals are criminals because of the way that they think.

Michael:

But importantly, he said that criminals can change the way that they think.

Michael:

And from the time Bret and I read that book, we both decided that we were going to make

Michael:

that change with Dr. Samanow as a guide and also with Ayn Rand as a guide and Dr.

Michael:

Nathaniel Brandon.

Michael:

But for the criminal aspects of our

Michael:

personality, saminow would be the main.

Blair:

Now, I know he's written several books, or at least two or three.

Michael:

Well, Inside the Criminal Mind is actually kind of an abbreviated version of a

Michael:

three volume set that he and Dr. Samuel Yokelson wrote called The Criminal

Michael:

Personality, and it was based on 15 years of research, interviewing criminals and doing

Michael:

groups with criminals and really dissecting the thinking of criminals.

Michael:

And so the three volume set is amazing, and I would recommend it to anybody.

Michael:

I would recommend Inside the Criminal Mind, too, but The Criminal Personality really

Michael:

delves deeply into how us criminals think and navigate the world.

Blair:

Now, as you're improving yourself in that environment, how were you able to cope,

Blair:

if I may ask?

Michael:

Very difficult, with a lot of difficulty.

Michael:

And, in fact, if I didn't have Brent with me, somebody to withstand the struggles, I don't

Michael:

know that I could have done it, because for one, it's very difficult for any human being

Michael:

to see everything about him or herself.

Michael:

I mean, there's things that other people see

Michael:

that we simply don't.

Michael:

And so just to have somebody that was there to

Michael:

hold me accountable on a regular basis was you know, Dr. Salmonau says an inmate in change, a

Michael:

criminal in change, cannot be allowed one lie.

Michael:

So you've got to really be strict with your

Michael:

behavior.

Michael:

And when you're doing that around a bunch of

Michael:

criminals, you get the inevitable.

Michael:

You think you're better than us.

Michael:

You're a goodie two shoes, and that stuff comes from staff, too.

Michael:

And it's not an easy thing to withstand when you're very much concerned with how other

Michael:

people are thinking and their judgments of you.

Michael:

In time, I learned not to be so concerned.

Michael:

But at first, that was a also, I mean, you got

Michael:

to understand, in prison, oftentimes bad behavior is rewarded, good behavior is

Michael:

punished.

Michael:

So the incentive structure is just set against

Michael:

change.

Michael:

So it was a very difficult process, and I'm

Michael:

just very fortunate that I had Brent with me to go through the process.

Blair:

You mentioned staff.

Blair:

I can imagine some I wouldn't know a

Blair:

percentage, but some of the staff are just as bad as some of the criminals.

Michael:

I once had a debate with an officer that I got along with, and let me just preface

Michael:

this with saying what I'm about to say.

Michael:

It says nothing about these men and women in

Michael:

their personal lives.

Michael:

I've known plenty of cos correctional officers

Michael:

that I got along with just fine.

Michael:

Very nice people.

Michael:

I just ran into one the other day at the store, and he said, I hope you're doing well.

Michael:

Shook my hand.

Michael:

But I once had a discussion with a

Michael:

correctional officer that I got along with, and he had read a book that Brent McCall and I

Michael:

wrote called down the Rabbit Hole how the Culture of Corrections Encourages Crime.

Michael:

And he told me, Leeb, he called me Leeb, he says, Lieb, come on, you're too hard on

Michael:

correctional officers.

Michael:

He says, I agree with a lot of what you said,

Michael:

but you got to admit there are some good correctional officers.

Michael:

He had been an officer for 20 years at the time.

Michael:

I told him, Name five for me, and he couldn't do it.

Michael:

He couldn't name five good correctional officers.

Michael:

And by good, I mean, look, they've got an administrative directive.

Michael:

They've got a code of conduct, a code of ethics that they're supposed to go by that

Michael:

sets the standard by which they're supposed to govern themselves.

Michael:

And if they don't govern themselves by that, they're not good correctional officers, and

Michael:

they simply don't.

Michael:

I've never met one that did.

Martin:

Michael, I get thinking of this movie.

Martin:

Shawshank Redemption Could you reflect on that

Martin:

or comment on that?

Michael:

Well, the Shawshank Redemption took place in the olden times when they didn't have

Michael:

televisions, radios, and Game Boys in their cells.

Michael:

So that experience is a bit different from mine.

Michael:

But I'll tell you this, in terms of the gossip and there being guys you go to for certain

Michael:

things, that stuff was accurate, that resonates with me.

Michael:

But a lot of the stuff was just in.

Michael:

That movie was way beyond anything that I've

Michael:

ever experienced.

Martin:

But I was thinking of his development and how he was looking into these chess pieces

Martin:

and so on and focus on the future.

Martin:

And what were you doing also with development?

Michael:

Well, I certainly was looking toward the future.

Michael:

It's a trick we play on ourselves in prison.

Michael:

No matter how much time you have, you think

Michael:

you're getting out soon and everybody, you're going to win the next appeal, you're going to

Michael:

win the habeas, you're going to get a sentence reduction somehow, and it gets you through.

Michael:

And so I was always looking to the future.

Michael:

And my main concern once I decided to change

Michael:

in my first seven years in prison, I did change for a little while, but I backslid

Michael:

quickly.

Michael:

I mean, I was sniffing heroin, smoking weed

Michael:

and gambling, doing all kinds of things.

Michael:

But once I decided to really put my foot down

Michael:

and change my life.

Michael:

I realized that if I'm ever going to have a

Michael:

decent life for myself outside of these walls, I need to fundamentally change who I am.

Michael:

So, yes, my mind was focused on the future, all the great great.

Blair:

Now, one of the things I think got your sentence reduced was that you and Brent

Blair:

created a program for inmates.

Michael:

Yes, we did, the imprisoned program.

Michael:

And it was based in large part on Dr. Stanton

Michael:

Salmonel, and it was actually in the beginning, we say this program is based on the

Michael:

writings of Ayn Rand, Nathaniel Brandon, and Dr. Stanton Salmonau.

Michael:

And it was about taking personal responsibility, building your self esteem,

Michael:

changing your values, and taking your life seriously, thinking logically, looking toward

Michael:

the long term.

Michael:

So, yeah, that helped.

Michael:

But it's interesting you brought that up, that group, because that group actually kind of led

Michael:

us to writing down The Rabbit Hole, because while we were confronting these inmates in

Michael:

this group, because it was a very confrontational group, they would often say,

Michael:

yeah, but the cos look what the cos do.

Michael:

Look what the cos do.

Michael:

And we would always tell them, it doesn't matter what they do.

Michael:

Your behavior is what matters.

Michael:

It's your life, not theirs.

Michael:

And I still believe that, don't get me wrong.

Michael:

But at the same time, if you're going to have

Michael:

a system, you're going to call it the Department of Corrections, you ought to be

Michael:

doing some correcting and not making it more difficult for programs like ours to get

Michael:

through to inmates because those inmates are always going to bring up how the correctional

Michael:

officers are behaving.

Blair:

Yeah. Now let's switch here.

Blair:

You have achieved some cause celebre locally

Blair:

here on radio.

Blair:

So to that, how did that come about?

Michael:

Well, when Brent and I wrote down The Rabbit Hole, we were trying to get publicity

Michael:

for the book, and we very naively thought all we had to do was write this book, get it to

Michael:

the local papers and TV stations, and they were all just going to run with it.

Michael:

That just didn't happen.

Michael:

Nobody cared.

Michael:

I mean, we sent this book to all over the place and no one cared.

Michael:

I don't know.

Michael:

I don't know why, but they didn't.

Michael:

We initially didn't want to get involved with politicians because we didn't want a

Michael:

politician cherry picking what we had written for his own political advantage.

Michael:

Well, that does, but one senator, a state senator in particular, lensuzio was on

Michael:

television, as he was frequently but he was making some very good points.

Michael:

So Bret and I kind of looked at each other and he said to me, we've got to get him a book.

Michael:

The next day, I called my friend Subby, whom I live with now and without whom I couldn't have

Michael:

accomplished anything really, in prison because he did so much for me.

Michael:

And I said, I want to get Len Suzio a book.

Michael:

He said, okay, let me call his assistant.

Michael:

So I said, all right, I'll call you back in 15 minutes.

Michael:

When I called him back in 15 minutes, he was on his way to the senator's office.

Michael:

Shortly thereafter, the senator came to visit me.

Michael:

Brent had been transferred.

Michael:

In the meantime, they separated us due to the

Michael:

book.

Michael:

But Len Suzio came to talk to me, and I was

Michael:

very impressed with him.

Michael:

He was a very nice guy, very sincere.

Michael:

And so he, you know, I'm going to make some connections, we're going to make some changes

Michael:

as the result of this book.

Michael:

But in a couple of months, he lost his bid for

Michael:

reelection.

Michael:

I was very disappointed, but I said, you know

Michael:

what? This guy is sincere.

Michael:

Let me write to him and tell him I'm still interested in working with him, which I did.

Michael:

And he said, look, I'm going to try to get you onto a TV show, on the news, on a radio show,

Michael:

whatever.

Michael:

And he ultimately was able to get me an

Michael:

interview with Tod Feinberg.

Michael:

Todd Feinberg hosts the most popular political

Michael:

talk show here in the state.

Michael:

So I'm thinking, OK, I'm going to go, I'm

Michael:

going to do this interview, and I'm going to get my message across the best I can.

Michael:

And that'll be I. I did the interview, and immediately after the interview, when we

Michael:

stopped recording, todd said to me, hey, how would you like to be a regular on the show?

Michael:

And of course I said, yes, I want to be a regular on the show.

Michael:

That sounds fantastic.

Michael:

All right.

Michael:

I was so excited, I had a big grin on my face.

Michael:

I went back to the cell, I laid down and I

Michael:

said, oh my God, what did I just agree to? How the hell am I going to come up with

Michael:

something to talk about every week? But I did.

Michael:

And for the next three and a half years, I guess it was while I was in prison, I stayed a

Michael:

regular guest on the show.

Michael:

And when I got out, he's had me in studio with

Michael:

him a few times.

Michael:

I've been on other talk shows here in the

Michael:

state, and I'm still a regular on Todd's guest once a week, and it's been fantastic.

Blair:

So that happened like three or four years ago when that began.

Michael:

Yeah, my first appearance on his show was April of 2019.

Martin:

So did you have a studio then?

Michael:

No, I had to call him collect.

Michael:

I had to call him collect, which the audience

Michael:

and Todd, they all kind of ate it up because you get to hear the beeps and all the stuff

Michael:

and the getting very real in.

Martin:

A.

Blair:

Now, again, I heard one of your shows when you called in and you stated that you're

Blair:

no longer a libertarian.

Blair:

How did you come to that realization?

Michael:

Okay, I hate to mince words with you, but I have to because it's important.

Michael:

What I actually said is I'm no longer going to call myself a libertarian, okay?

Michael:

Politically and philosophically, my views haven't changed at all.

Michael:

But I realize now that the net that the term libertarian catches is too big, and I don't

Michael:

want to be associated with some of the things that are said by libertarians.

Michael:

And I'll just give you an example.

Michael:

I was the spokesperson for the Libertarian

Michael:

Party of Connecticut for a brief period of time, a couple months.

Michael:

And one day I was going through my Facebook feed and the Alabama Mises Caucus, which is

Michael:

part of the Libertarian Party, had a post where they were quoting Ted Kaczynski in a

Michael:

complimentary had and they referred to him as Uncle Ted.

Michael:

And I said, I just can't be a part of a party that's going to do something like that.

Michael:

I don't want to be associated with that.

Michael:

So I got out of the party.

Michael:

I resigned my post, but I still would call myself a libertarian small L, just not part of

Michael:

the party.

Blair:

I appreciate that, Clarification.

Blair:

I appreciate that.

Michael:

But then when there was this attack from Hamas on Israel, and I saw some of the

Michael:

quotes coming from some prominent libertarians in the country basically drawing a moral

Michael:

equivalence between Israel and Hamas, I said, that's it.

Michael:

I have to distance myself from that.

Michael:

So while if you think of the term libertarian

Michael:

as describing somebody that thinks that the government simply exists to protect people's

Michael:

individual rights and that people should be free to do whatever they want so long as they

Michael:

don't prevent others from doing the same, then the term still describes me.

Michael:

I just won't use it to describe myself because I don't want to be associated with people

Michael:

defending Hamas or quoting Ted Kaczynski in a positive manner.

Blair:

Well, thank you for that.

Blair:

So now I assume you have a fairly normal life.

Blair:

What are you doing and what are your future plans?

Blair:

Do you have any other books in mind?

Michael:

Well, I wouldn't rule out writing another book, but I will say this writing a

Michael:

book is a very difficult process.

Blair:

I bet.

Michael:

And right now I'm trying to establish myself as a podcaster.

Michael:

So I do about three or four podcasts a week, and it blows me away how fortunate I've been.

Michael:

I've been able to interview some of the people whose books I was reading while I was in

Michael:

prison.

Michael:

I mean, I interviewed David Friedman.

Michael:

Milton Friedman's son.

Blair:

Right.

Michael:

So that was great.

Michael:

Tonight I'm going to be interviewing one of

Michael:

the candidates for the Libertarian Parties for the presidential nomination for the

Michael:

Libertarian Party.

Michael:

So I've been surprised.

Michael:

I just send people emails and say, Would you come on the show?

Michael:

And they do.

Blair:

Yeah, that's how I've done it.

Martin:

That's how I've done is good at that.

Martin:

And maybe we could in the green room.

Martin:

But also here also, do you have any tips to fellow podcasters.

Martin:

How to do that.

Michael:

I don't know.

Michael:

What I do is I just read a lot of articles,

Michael:

and when I come across an article that I like, I send an email out and I say, how'd you like

Michael:

to come on the show and talk about this? And maybe one in five agrees.

Michael:

But when you send it out, hundreds of emails.

Michael:

I think I've done 90 something podcasts now.

Michael:

And I've interviewed people from the Ayn rand Institute, from the Atlas Society, the

Michael:

foundation for Economic Education, mother Jones magazine.

Michael:

So it's really been a great experience for me.

Michael:

I don't have quite as many subscribers to my

Michael:

podcast as I would like.

Michael:

I think I've got 357 on YouTube, but I've only

Michael:

had the show going since March, so I'm going to stick with it and I think I can turn it

Michael:

into a success.

Blair:

Great. Sounds great.

Blair:

Now, can I guess who your candidate is?

Blair:

Is it? Michael recttenwald.

Michael:

No. I've already interviewed him, though.

Michael:

I interviewed him.

Michael:

Interestingly.

Michael:

Not about politics.

Michael:

He and I had a debate.

Michael:

He said on his Facebook feed that reason and faith that they're consistent with one

Michael:

another.

Blair:

Oh, boy.

Michael:

And I said, oh, no, they're not.

Michael:

So I got him on the show and we had a debate

Michael:

about it.

Michael:

I've also had a few exchanges with him about

Michael:

politics on Facebook and Twitter.

Michael:

But the debate we had on my podcast concerned

Michael:

Faith and okay.

Blair:

Okay.

Michael:

I'm having on mike Termat is the candidate that I'm having on.

Blair:

I don't know him at all.

Michael:

Former police officer running for the nomination.

Michael:

Okay.

Michael:

I'm having on tonight.

Blair:

Well, good luck to him, I guess.

Blair:

All right.

Blair:

Well, Michael, again, thank you for being on the Mean.

Blair:

We have been talking to Michael Liebowitz, author of View from a Cage and down the Rabbit

Blair:

Hole.

Blair:

Mike, thanks for manning the foxhole with us.

Michael:

No problem.

Michael:

And my podcast is the rational egoist.

Michael:

Yes.

Michael:

Available wherever you get your podcast.

Blair:

Shameless self promotion, no doubt.

Michael:

No problem.

Michael:

No, it's funny, a couple people have kind of

Michael:

thought they were mocking me by telling me how I'm promoting myself on Facebook, and I'm

Michael:

like, yeah.

Michael:

And.

Martin:

Then this was a great conversation.

Martin:

Nice listening to you and adding some two cent

Martin:

to the conversation.

Martin:

But we could continue another time.

Martin:

But really, as you said, promote yourself and also how you could support your work.

Martin:

And also, have you heard about this Podcasting 2.0 initiative and the Value for Value model?

Michael:

No, I have not.

Martin:

No. So then we will talk more about that.

Martin:

And Blair and I, we have to be how should we improve on asking and promote our work?

Martin:

And how you could support but in short, is that the listener decides what's the value for

Martin:

them and then accordingly send donations.

Martin:

For example, boostogram with Satushis.

Martin:

And one Satushi is like a bit of a bitcoin.

Martin:

If you take one bitcoin and divide it 100

Martin:

million times, then you get one satushi and you use a new podcast app like for example,

Martin:

podverse, Fountain, et cetera.

Martin:

And then you could send directly a donation

Martin:

and also like a digital telegram giving feedback, giving comments to the host, to the

Martin:

guests and also in a way, participate in the show.

Martin:

So that's this Podcasting 2.0 model and initiative, it really works according to the

Martin:

trader principle also.

Martin:

But it's new so it will take time before it's

Martin:

catching on, I think.

Blair:

Right.

Blair:

Michael, have you even delved into bitcoin?

Blair:

Do you know anything about it?

Michael:

Only that a lot of people try to get me to invest in it on Twitter.

Martin:

You should listen to Dave wexler we had an interview with Real Expert on yeah,

Martin:

back.

Blair:

That was a year or so ago.

Blair:

But anyhow Martin, I think that's all the

Blair:

questions I had.

Blair:

Thanks Mike, for being on the show.

Martin:

Yeah, thank you very much.

Blair:

Good luck to him.

Blair:

Hopefully in the green room.

Blair:

I have some other things I want to talk to him about, but that's a wrap.

Martin:

Yeah, it is.

Martin:

Do you ever want to add something at the end,

Martin:

Michael?

Michael:

Just thank you guys for having me on.

Michael:

I'd be happy to be back anytime.

Martin:

Great.

Martin:

Thanks a lot.

Blair:

Thank you, Mike. It.